Curse

joea64 · Oct 15, 2010, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

I'll throw this question out to the hardore & casual PvE community that's reading this thread. What would incent you to participate in PvP? HoM requirement? $ rewards? more zkeys? more balth? something else? Or is there no incentive at all because you absolutely hate the venues themselves? Or no incentive at all because you refuse to participate due to the rank discrimination?

Actually, none of the above. I have no incentive to participate in PvP because PvP simply doesn't interest me. I came to GW for the PvE experience. Period.

Krill · Oct 15, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Bitter, much?

Disregarding the fact that the entire PvP reward system was basically "Ooooh, look at the shiny cape and emote! So shiny!", there's absolutely nothing wrong with Anet actually catering to the market share that kept Guild Wars afloat. And that's PvE. The players spoke via comment and cash, and the game went in the direction that the customer base pushed it in.

Besides, this entire post is foolish. You can get every pet via zaishen faction (pick up M.O.X. on the way to the Hall, that's 4 points on Devotion), you get minipets on any character type (let's be conservative and say 3 points there), all your PvP titles can be applied (11 points in Honor), all your faction from AB/FA/JQ can be applied toward a single set of elite faction armor (2 points), you can use Zkeys to buy your entire Valor monument (8 points).......Hell, that's 28/30. All you need is a total of 20 minipets (sell more zkeys), and that will bump you up to the 30/30 maximum total of rewards.

So what are all the PvP people complaining about?

I'm not bitter towards PvE players or anet. Disappointed with the later would be more appropriate. However, the PvE players don't seem to get it at all. The disappointment is that anet has spent what little resources they have on pointless endeavors like the henchmen contest, zaishen zoo and HoM additions rather than making actual improvements to PvP.

I don't care about items or titles, what I do care about is that there's no TA because anet was too lazy to fix it, HA is a ghost town and you can take a nap waiting for GvG matches. It's not even worth the time anymore, but thank god I was rewarded with a trinket for GW2.

Windf0rce · Oct 15, 2010, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Why am I not surprised? Imagine you are a gaming company aiming to make money (of course).

95% of people like PvE (cooperative play).
5% of people like PvP (competitive play).

Which of these playerbases would be worth focusing on? The answer seems way too easy.

PvP is wanted by the minority. Being a minority sucks every area of life, just accept it and move on.

Iuris · Oct 15, 2010, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

And yet my examples clearly illustrate a consistent, if not increasing focus on PvP over the years.

Krill seems to disagree...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

If you don't want to, then don't play.

Which is kinda what happened, y'know, and what the OP is complaining about

Very few people play PvP for this very reason.

Krill · Oct 15, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

PvP is wanted by the minority. Being a minority sucks every area of life, just accept it and move on.

If you don't like it, leave and move on arguments are all fine and good until there's no players left.

Iuris · Oct 15, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

If you don't like it, leave and move on arguments are all fine and good until there's no players left.

Sigh, all too true. I may not care about PvP and find it boring, but I know how being a minority feels. How seeing practically no games like System shock 2 are made any more feels... Sigh...

Swahnee · Oct 15, 2010, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Femmefatal

lmao lol You tell that to Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Ojocinco hahaha These guys have no intentions of "growing up" because of real life sports. Real life sports is "all about MONEY" and rings and prestige and sticking it in your face and going to DisneyLand.

I was expecting stupid comments like this. Now you can turn off the television, get up from yuor sofa and go out playing some sport, and maybe you'll understand the difference from sport and business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Your analogy about sports would be valid if there different leagues of skill
(ie.. new groups vrs new groups)... you don't see high school football players playing against professional leagues.. Which i think would save PVP... have different arenas for different tiers of rank.... once you get enough rank you advance to the next arena... newbs vrs newbs... big boys vrs big boys...

added suggestion thread...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...57#post5269557

This, in my opinion, is what ANet should have done from the beginning. Different level tournaments with their respective ladders, so hardcore players could play with hardcore players, and casual with casual (and maybe even more levels).

Krill · Oct 15, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

This, in my opinion, is what ANet should have done from the beginning. Different level tournaments with their respective ladders, so hardcore players could play with hardcore players, and casual with casual (and maybe even more levels).

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better. The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

Regardless, to a certain extent players are segregated. The GvG ladder tries to match guilds of similar rating and CM's, AB and RA are full of "casual players". I don't believe it would be possible to dumb it down more then JQ or RA.

You can't see me · Oct 15, 2010, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better. The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

It's not about crying when beaten or being humbled for a lot of people I know. It's more like not wanting to go to HA and deal with people who make things like HA very difficult. Casual players usually aren't lazy, they're just not playing the game to deal with the assholes that come in a gift basket with HA/GvG guilds/groups. It certainly turns me off from PvP, and has been for years.

agrios · Oct 15, 2010, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Its not about being lazy, carebear or whatever PVP'ers say about PVE'rs.

Its a matter of taste.

Some listen rock and some listen rap.

Some like PVE and some PVP. Some like to compete, some to cooperate. Some like beat others, some like to beat monsters.

Whats the problem of other people not having the same taste as you? Jeez..

YunSooJin · Oct 15, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Again ANT creates incentive to Play PvE over PvP. Gotta luv the GW2 HoM calculator. At least all players that want "GW reward" in GW2 know just what they need to do in order to MAX the "rewards".

And it turns out that you need EXACTLY ONE PvP item (any PvP title) in your HoM. Thats it??? EVERYTHING ELSE is PvE!!!!

Now I'm certainly no genius, but it seems to me that those gamers that desire a full HoM (per the calculator) will focus their available game time on PvE & NOT PvP.

Anyway, it occurs to me that if ANET wanted to sustain SOME incentive for gamers to choose between PvP over PvE, then maybe they should offer in-game gold for kills in PvP so that those players could also BUY the items they need for a full HoM. Essentially when you play PvP, you are effectively excluded from 49 of the 50 HoM items required for "max rewards" (unless of course you use zkeys from the balth you earn or you get the ZC & trade for zoins items - booze/sweets/party)

Guess I shoulda seen THAT commin.

the irony in this thread is the ANET put in the nail in the coffin for PvP a long long time ago.

Rocky Raccoon · Oct 15, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

the irony in this thread is the ANET put in the nail in the coffin for PvP a long long time ago.

I think the players, for all the various reasons mentioned in the posts above. are the ones who drove the stake and nailed the coffin of PvP in GW.

NerfHerder · Oct 15, 2010, 01:35 PM // 13:35

I have to agree, its the PvP'rs who sealed PvP's fate a long time ago. Rank discrimination, elitist attitudes, and cheating all did thier part for PvP. Now its only the elitists left who play and now they complain, "there isnt anyone here!"

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying the OP or other PvP enthusiasts in this forum display that type of behavior. But, thats what happend. PvE is simply more conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Therefore, more people PvE so they get the cookie.

Swahnee · Oct 15, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better. The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

Regardless, to a certain extent players are segregated. The GvG ladder tries to match guilds of similar rating and CM's, AB and RA are full of "casual players". I don't believe it would be possible to dumb it down more then JQ or RA.

People like those you are talking about surely exist, but you can't make such an exaggeration, saying most of them are lazy (not wanting to put words into your mouth, correct me if i misunderstood). There are indeed also real casuals, meaning people who don't want/can't be so dedicated to this game because they've better things to do, usually in real life. Other people have got some time, but they don't want to take this game so seriously. I know that to have a chance to compete in PvP you have to learn quite a lot of stuff that in PvE you never even heard about. A lot of people say, rightfully in my opinion, "this is just a game, i won't go mad for it". I don't think that these kind of people should be totally kept away from the PvP aspect of the game, and i don't think, also, that they shoud be allowed to win against hardcore players. They both should simply be allowed to play at their own paces, like it happens, and works wonderfully, in real sports. I play in a very low volleyball league in Italy, but i don't think to be "too lazy" to reach the top series (and being only 1.73 m tall doesn't help me

).

You are right that GvG ladder try to address this issue, but GvG is the last step. I would love to see tournaments and ladders in the "learning places" like 4v4 arenas. If you are a total newcomer of PvP, you probably don't start right with GvG, you'll try to learn the basic concepts of organized play in the smaller arenas, but you won't learn anything if most times you lose badly to hardcore players. However, there is another thread in sardelac on this actual subject, so i won't go deep into this matter here.

Roen · Oct 15, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better.

...

The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

Nice attitude. Casual players are lazy. Chicken. Wussies who can't handle the embarrassment. That's how your post reads. Whether that's your true opinion or not I don't know. But that's how it comes across. And it's one of the reasons I don't play PvP. Because that's the way a lot of PvPers come across.

Reminds me of a time long long ago, when I was at university. There was a foosball table in a common area and my best friend and I hung out there and played every day. We were the best players, by far. (Some accomplishment, eh?)

He insisted on pummeling EVERY opponent EVERY time. I tried to reason with him that if we were unwilling to teach other players, unwilling to help our competitors and give them a chance, the competition would dry up and we'd be left with nobody to play with but ourselves. But no. He would only accept complete annihilation and high fiving and smack talking opponents for sucking so bad.

Lo and behold, the people willing to step up to the table and challenge us dwindled. They were sick of his attitude. They'd pony up money to play and get slammed 15-0 in two minutes or less. IT WAS NOT FUN FOR THEM. Eventually, nobody played anymore.

So yeah, lots of people prefer cooperative play of PvE over PvP. For very good reasons. But that doesn't make them lazy. Just less anti-social.

IlikeGW · Oct 15, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better. The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

The thing is there's lots of hardcore players in GW that don't enjoy the PVP. And the reason is for many of them the General and troops style organization you need is really the worst gaming experience. I've played with perfectly friendly talented PVP groups and won the HoH a few times. I recognize that what good groups needed was good leadership, and that I wasn't really the guy for that so I just followed orders. But you know what it was pretty boring to spend my escapist gaming time following orders and builds other people made up. It didn't feel like there was much point. It didn't take any talent at all to follow orders, and the matches were 95% about how good the leaders were. So even on the "inside" of PVP I found it boring, and all the people getting dissed when trying to even get a group of course, or the impossibility of a PUG succeeding make it even worse for people.

JR · Oct 15, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

I've played with perfectly friendly talented PVP groups and won the HoH a few times. I recognize that what good groups needed was good leadership, and that I wasn't really the guy for that so I just followed orders. But you know what it was pretty boring to spend my escapist gaming time following orders and builds other people made up. It didn't feel like there was much point. It didn't take any talent at all to follow orders, and the matches were 95% about how good the leaders were. So even on the "inside" of PVP I found it boring, and all the people getting dissed when trying to even get a group of course, or the impossibility of a PUG succeeding make it even worse for people.

Being a drone in a HA pug is no representation of what good competitive PvP is about.

PvP is about being in a team of equally skilled and experienced people, working in perfect synergy toward an incredibly challenging and ever shifting goal. It's about struggling to the top. It's about winning because of your collective talents.

It's not about having orders barked at you in a terrible pug format.

jazilla · Oct 15, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

It would have been nice if the PvP title provided some incentive for completionists to actually PvP a little.

^this. although i can understand why PvE'ers don't want to play any PvP. One of the guild leaders in my alliance tried RA out the other day because I told him he was a good enough monk to try it. He got his team 10 wins and lost on the 11th and 2 players on his team spammed NOOB! at him when they lost. That is the disconnect. Which would he rather do: Get some RA points while getting called names or go heal for a team of alliance mates that always want him along because he is a good monk and also make some money while doing it and then buy zkeys for the PvP HoM points? I think name callers helped ANET to make the decision about PvP points in the HoM.

Krill · Oct 15, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

You are right that GvG ladder try to address this issue, but GvG is the last step. I would love to see tournaments and ladders in the "learning places" like 4v4 arenas. If you are a total newcomer of PvP, you probably don't start right with GvG, you'll try to learn the basic concepts of organized play in the smaller arenas, but you won't learn anything if most times you lose badly to hardcore players. However, there is another thread in sardelac on this actual subject, so i won't go deep into this matter here.

You can learn the basics of PvP in random arena and by observing matches. All I was saying is don't make "but if only I could play it my way" excuses. You either take the plunge or sit on the sidelines waiting for something that will never happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Nice attitude. Casual players are lazy. Chicken. Wussies who can't handle the embarrassment. That's how your post reads. Whether that's your true opinion or not I don't know. But that's how it comes across. And it's one of the reasons I don't play PvP. Because that's the way a lot of PvPers come across.

Reminds me of a time long long ago, when I was at university. There was a foosball table in a common area and my best friend and I hung out there and played every day. We were the best players, by far. (Some accomplishment, eh?)

He insisted on pummeling EVERY opponent EVERY time. I tried to reason with him that if we were unwilling to teach other players, unwilling to help our competitors and give them a chance, the competition would dry up and we'd be left with nobody to play with but ourselves. But no. He would only accept complete annihilation and high fiving and smack talking opponents for sucking so bad.

Lo and behold, the people willing to step up to the table and challenge us dwindled. They were sick of his attitude. They'd pony up money to play and get slammed 15-0 in two minutes or less. IT WAS NOT FUN FOR THEM. Eventually, nobody played anymore.

So yeah, lots of people prefer cooperative play of PvE over PvP. For very good reasons. But that doesn't make them lazy. Just less anti-social.

Indeed many people don't like being slaughtered. Many moons ago when I played my first online game (Unreal Tournament) it took at least a whole summer of being wrecked before I could even hope for a remotely decent round, let alone flag carry or top score. It was still fun as hell though even if I was being repeatedly spawned killed with an amped mini. Satisfaction only comes from accomplishing something that's actually difficult. When GW launched it was supposed to be the anti-MMO, all competitive and no grind. Here we are 5 years later and it's completely non-competitive with most of the players grinding pointless PvE titles that only require X amount of time and gold. Mission accomplished I guess.

And for the record there are few PvP players that will help, but you have to put some sort of effort into it first (UAX, learning the basics in RA, observing). It doesn't take long to sort out lazy players from those that have a brain and want to get something done.

doomfodder · Oct 15, 2010, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr love

the rewards (hero title track, emote, unid gold from HoH chest) do not justify the pain (insults, losing, waiting time to form or find a match, realizing you're terrible, playing with preteens on vent) for the majority of players.

GvG has even less rewards.

that's why most people never improve at organized PvP. they want it easier and to give more.

This risk/reward scenario is the underlying theme of most of the posters in this thread. EVERY GAMER sees risk in the game (that's why it's a game) & EVERY gamer sees reward in the game.

In THIS case, the risks for the PvE'r entering PvP are noted in the quote above & the reward IS THE INCENTIVE created by ANET. ANET could have used the HoM to enhance the value precieved by the existing incentives in order to stimulate PvP (even a very small amount). By increasing/changing the reward - essentially lowering the risk/reward ratio that is soley determined by each individual gamer. Sure, the other alternative is to change the PvP "risk" structure, but THAT "solution" is entirely independent of the HoM.

The point of the OP: ANET simply chose NOT to assume the risk of alienating the majority of the player base (PvE) by intentionally STEERING the player base away from PvP (ie: making more thatn 1 PvP title mandatory). Instead ANET used the HoM to STEER the available gamers into PvE. Since ANET conciously made this choice, there are other options to stimulate PvP...

Sure if you're rich enough (doesn't matter how you earn in-game $ legally per the EULA - Pve drops or PvP selling) you can buy many of the titles required for HoM and eventually get 50/50. That's just part of the structure created by ANET. We can't change the rules, we can only play by them. But what if ANET were to "alter" the rules to increase the $ rewards in PvP - like earning $ for each kill? Could it actually be faster to earn $ in PvP instead of PvE & thereby use PvP to "help" fill your HoM? Think of it this way: If you thought you could make more $ 'faster" in PvP than than you could in PvE, would you try it?